topic Re: How we ended up buying a very ugly flipper! in Bay Area

How we ended up buying a very ugly flipper!

buyinghouse — Tue, 28 Feb 2012 19:22:12 GMT

Some of you guys know me by now, I have been participating in these forums for almost a year. But, it seems that I wasn't here at all because anything and everything I could have learned was lost in translation and we ended up buying a flipper of the worse kind. It looks good from the outside, but not beautiful from the inside.

Yes, I read, I heard, I was told to be picky, to inspect, to look, touch and do anything possible to put into question anything abnormal in a property for sale. Yes, I was told to not hurry up. I was told to be patient but it didn't matter, the urgency to own and to grab what we thought it was a good deal or at least the best chance to own put us in the path to own a good piece of the cake or a rotten egg depending if the property keeps or earns more equity. This is where you ask yourself if quality equals price or the price disregards the quality. And no, I am not asking to get my money back, not at all, just telling my tale about "expectations".

Here's some of the mistakes we made:

We were using a "realtor", whom we gave the chance to earn his money out of appreciation, as a compensation for his 8 months touring us homes for sale. I should have known or I knew but I didn't listen that in this world of real estate there's not such a word as "compassion". So, the agent was there, his job became easy when we were approved for a loan by the city of San Jose, that meant we were accepted to own one of their rehabilitated homes. That is, if this one deal fell through as this property in pending status started to show signs that the buyer would not complete the deal. We prayed, we crossed our fingers but the deal went to the final stages and got sold. We were sad.

More properties came to the market owned by the city at the same time my wife was told that his office was going to be moved 3 miles away in down town San Jose. That would put her in trouble because she can't drive that long without getting stressed, and stress makes her sick. So, we toured this property a mile away from his office and she decides to put the offer for that property. We liked the property, it was remodeled they said and we believed in that word "remodeled" as we had seen the other property we almost got approved for. Did I really, really see any defects on that property? Yes, but it seemed that I didn't take my time to pay close attention to fine details. Basically, the big mistake or good action I made was that I had to deal with our 3 years old daughter and my 8 years old boy whom by their nature were jumping and running around and I had to be the one watching for their safety. I really messed it up. My wife? She was happy, she liked the house and I had to agree of course. I repeat, we didn't take or I didn't take enough time to grab a magnifier and look closely to details. Basically, the urgency to own made me give away precaution or my own due diligence. Of course, it all depends on if the prices go up, it will be a "good investment" they say.

Re: How we ended up buying a very ugly flipper!

buyinghouse — Tue, 28 Feb 2012 19:22:56 GMT

So, our offer is accepted, the process starts, we get a nice lady as a loan officer. She really worked hard for us. She was on top of everything. Believe me guys, banks are asking a lot of questions. My goodness, they even questioned my wife about those $5K that she spent, something visible in her bank statement. We were laughing thinking what the bank rep thought when she read my wife's explanation that those $5K were the deposit, the earnest money.

Another mistake we made was to accept our agent's referral, the home inspectors from Homeguard. I showed up there minutes after they started to work. One of them showed me a gutter with "some water condensation" and they thought the gutter was clogged. You could see how the gutter was "sweating". I replied that if they could see, the house was remodeled and the chances to get leaves from trees around (none around) were zero. That day, I used my camera to video how somebody kind of went crazy and hammered on the carpet and using a knife cut out the carpet. Also, I filmed some kind of stains on the existent livingroom's tile and the carpet on the staircase. I sent the video to our dear agent so he could call the seller to let her know she had to send somebody to clean and repair the carpet.

A week later we have to close contingencies. The inspection report comes with a few items to be questioned. Nothing big to repair. They mentioned "squeaky floor", you may need to nail some boards, etc. The inspectors put this long list of things they can't do in their disclaimer. The most famous is "the crawling space is blah, blah". Even though they were walking around with a ladder, it seems that they couldn't inspect the roof because it was "dangerous" or something like that. But the report shows a picture of our adorable roof, picture taken from? From the roof! Basically, the $650.00 best and fastest earned by these people in 1 hour, yes, 1 hour! The foundation couldn't be inspected because it was made out of concrete. The roof was brand new, so why inspect it don't you think? But we paid to get inspected, why if they couldn't get to it or they simply stated it's OK because it was new?

So, Monday comes, we are told the contingencies are to be closed on Wednesday. But at the same time we get our loan officer to tell us that the lender decides to pull a "field review $325.00" out of its sleeves so it confirms the price the appraisal came up with. It's to be performed exactly the day we close contingencies and we are already using an extension. The report would take 24 hours, so, we are in a panic mode thinking if the report comes short? There's no other thing to do but sign the contingencies. So, it's 5 PM, we are at the agent's office. He pulls and addendum in which the sellers lets us know that somebody had backed in into our garage wall (the right hand wall) and had made a hole in it and that it would be patched up. Not a big deal we are told. They also compromised to install the screens on windows and sliding doors. My wife signs off the contingencies and we go home to enjoy the end of the year. So did everybody in the county I heard.

After Christmas, I decide to see the little hole on the wall. Yes, somebody was drunk and because of the bent 50 feet away lost control, climbed onto a speed limit pole, bent it and crashed onto our garage! The little hole becomes a scene of an accident where the driver took off. The garage door is pushed 5 inches in. So, the promise to fix it is in the addendum, after closing escrow. I started to feel uneasy.

Re: How we ended up buying a very ugly flipper!

buyinghouse — Tue, 28 Feb 2012 19:24:13 GMT

Few days into the new year, I get the agent to open the house, he takes off. I go to the front window on the second floor, I open it, put a foot out and then the second one (remember the inspectors?) and I walk on the roof to find out the gutter is full of water. Feeling that we own the house already, I communicate our agent so he can tell the seller to fix it. I also let our agent know that the seller hadn't cleaned the carpets full of stains. All of this via email. So, escrow is closing fast, so fast that properties that went pending at the same time up to today are still pending. Meanwhile, I keep pushing my agent to make the construction company that remodeled this home to fix whatever it's promised. I took the place of our agent who seemed "not to read our emails", I guess to not get compromised in anything unethical.

The sellers are 3 partners and one owns the remodel company. I keep calling her to complain for the gutter not being fixed. She tells me the gutter was inspected by the same roofer who installed it and he had said "it was up to code"? I reply that I would gladly work for her installing gutters, I would just assemble them, nailed them on whatever, ask for my money and in any case I was to be questioned I would just say "it is up to code". And, this is where the things start to be clear to me; We were buying something fishy! Why? Because I was checking during the inspections the quality of the paint job and I got concerned because in the kitchen the walls seemed to be dropping paint chips. I went to see closely and I swear to God that I got so mad seeing and feeling with my own skin the ugliness of what the sellers claim in their statement "the craftsmanship". When I touched the walls, I felt like I was caressing sand paper. It can't be, I said to myself. The wall on the side of the brand new cabinets was pure sand paper. A little area of one inch seemed to have some sheen. The rest was like flat paint. Reply from the seller? "We don't do repaints" and we don't care about cosmetics, as if the famous "fresh paint" was a paint job! So, to make it short, bathroom upstairs and shower downstairs were "gutted" but the sheetrock showed signs that this company had use the 2 places as a classroom. You could see 3-4 types of texture. Was there a hole in the wall? Oh yes! Then, patch it with your putty knife and when the compound dries, leave it like that, paint on it! On the ceiling, you could see a "U" on the brand new texture job or what I think is they didn't replaced the sheetrock. Forget about putting some texture on it, "it will be sold" they must have said. You want to turn the lights on? You do it but when you go to touch the switch plate, next to it there's a 1x2 inch of flat compound which doesn't have texture. On the ceiling you could see the black or green color of either the sheetrock or the mildew from the former "gutted" walls and ceilings. I thought gutted meant you take all the walls and redo them? Throughout the house you could find nails on the walls, above one window wall, 20 nail holes in sequence! Paint drips everywhere, all of them "existent". You know, the former owner was a slob.......But no the painters from this company who came to paint!

Then, the cabinets underneath the sinks in the bathrooms. Oh my God! You know the drawers have a space between them? Let's say 1/2 inch. One drawer had 3/4 on one side and 1/2 at the other end! Yes, they couldn't have taken time to screw the screws at the same distance so you could have some aesthetics for Christ sake! Then, we had the surprise to notice the sinks would scratch so easily. They were made out of "cultured marble"? What the heck? Nobody told us of anything and if it's not because the big boss and a supervisor from the program came to "visit me" to listen why I was beaching that I learned of that fact!

So, we close escrow, we became owners and what I am telling you now or before is a fact. I had to call the company to complain about the gutters not being repaired and the poor quality of the paint job. The hole on the wall fixed. Gutters were installed 2/3 weeks ago, almost a month after complaining. Screens installed last Thursday after more than a month of closing escrow but again, one sliding door was left without a screen. Some things never change you'd say.

Re: How we ended up buying a very ugly flipper!

buyinghouse — Tue, 28 Feb 2012 19:26:15 GMT

During the visit of the 2 prominent figures from the program I used all my patience to show them all the bad things around the house.

1- Paint job done as if this house was less than a rental property. 4rent would feel honored seeing the ss**bleep**ty job they left. Answer from the city guy? $5,000 is cheap for them to deliver a good job! They couldn't grab a sanding pole and spend 20 minutes each room and get rid of the pebbles on the walls?

2- Cabinets in bathroom and shower had their drawers not leveled. Brand new cabinet drawers in the kitchen "clank" one against the other.

3- The famous theshold, the metal thing you step on when enter the house lacked of something underneath so you wouldn't feel the sensation that it was going to break, it makes a terrible noise. The metal plate on the front door where the keyhole is, is out of center.

4- I was reading the instructions on how to clean the famous vinyl floor in kitchen and baths. It's from Armstrong, the "green" thing they told me. "It cures itself", so don't worry about scratches and cuts? Why did they tell me that? Because when reading instructions, it said "if you're going to drag something heavy, use a blanket or a piece of plywood so you don't scratch the floor. I am next to the brand new oven. I looked down and I could see the 2 huge scratches made by "them" setting the oven in front of the space and pushing it until it went in scratching the floor. the floor itself had a bunch of scratches, all dull, no life. It seems they installed it and forgot about putting rosin paper or something to protect it. As I believe in fairy tales, I am waiting for the dam..I mean, the sacred floor to cure itself, it's made of Lindsey oil they say. It took me 10 days to find out what cleaner was OK to use as the floor will get damaged if you use a current one. "No rinse" will make it they said so I bought it. You want a rug on top of it? Not the usual one, it has to be a "color fast" one, as any rubber product will stain the floor. We are slaves of this floor, what a nice deal!

5- Remember stains and so on the carpet? I sent the video to our agent so he could forward it to the seller. A day before owning the place, I sent another email asking him to tell the seller that we wouldn't like to do the walk through seeing that ugliness. The day that we are told that we own the place, our agent calls me and tells me to go and pick up the keys to prevent anybody to walk in the house. His office is 800 feet to 1 mile from our house. I had to travel 6 miles. He is willing to meet us that same day at 6:00 PM to give us the keys, which I had already in my hands? He gets there after us, walks 10 feet inside by the stairs while I go upstairs to check if they cleaned the carpet. I came back asking him why it's everything the same way? He looks at me "surprised", then he responds "they didn't clean it"? Then I knew the son of God hadn't communicated anything to the seller. Later, he says he will send his cleaning crew to take care of the stains. He receives a call, I guess pre-planned and leaves in a hurry. We are there, looking at the carpet all dirty, nothing to do but go home and start planning the future move. Walk through what? We didn't have it! Thursday comes, then Friday, then Saturday and Sunday but carpets the same, no cleaning. Monday I call him and he responds that......"my cleaning crew is afraid of cleaning just the spots and they don't do new carpets"? Again, it confirmed my suspicions that this guy was one of those that you and I have heard or criticized in the past. He doesn't compromise to clean it, he basically didn't say anything about anything.

6- After hearing my complaints about how awful the paint job was, that I could see pebbles on the walls and still there are many the construction company sent 2 of its painters to paint whatever I needed. I see them arriving with only drop clothes and the trim and wall paints. After they told me that the city "gave us only 40 hours to paint your house" I decided I couldn't trust them anymore. I tell them to grab a pole sander and one of them starts sanding some walls while the other moves the drop cloth around, you know, they afraid to scratch the already scratched floor! They assured me that of the 2 companies working in this program, they were "the best ones". I almost laughed on their faces but I contained myself. Then, I showed them the dirt, the pebbles on the walls and they kind of told me they just arrive, cover whatever is necessary and blow the paint on the walls. No time for cleaning, no time for sanding defects or whatever on the walls, any nails? Paint them! After sanding some walls, I sent them back. I got disgusted with the finish. Believe me, it's horrible! And no, you don't see the whole enchilada when you are touring the properties.

7- When I was painting the kitchen so I could get rid of the ugliness, I noticed the granite counter tops were dusty. I dusted them and I started to notice that when you rub them you feel some kind of roughness. There are voids everywhere, and some areas are darker, rough, no sheen at all. Some of the edges of the counter tops were unfinished, some dullness and the square area where they placed the cheap metal sink that smells like iron, that area was showing how they started to sand and forgot to polish it. Some sanding marks around. Worse, they had installed the cheap metal sink underneath the slab, not on top!. Then, I noticed the back splash had some black stains. If you look sideways, you can see it's stained. I tried to clean it to no avail. One you drop water or anything liquid on top of the counter top, it turns dark. I have no idea why as I remember the counter tops are so smooth without any voids or pieces of it sticking up. You know what the city guys told me? Go to Home Cheapo and buy a cleaner and that will take care of it! What a nice idea as I am the remodeling company, don't you think so? Nonetheless to say, of course I got (not) all the equipment to polish the counter top edges. Of course, the guy told me that the "lack of polish/sheen is natural in this product" ? Did he say -I will punish this company for misrepresentation or for delivering poor quality?-

Re: How we ended up buying a very ugly flipper!

buyinghouse — Tue, 28 Feb 2012 19:28:01 GMT

8- Windows were overpainted. Again, in the tour, we didn't notice that. Cracks on the windows not caulked. They mention in the disclosure that "all the over spray" was "existent". I had to install blinds as soon as I could to avoid criticism from my friends and visitors.

9- 36" space for the fridge is thing of the past. We had to pay extra to buy a 33" fridge that would allow us to at least semi-open the left door. Answer from the eminent personalities? Up to code/standard! I guess you need to find a property with the proper dimensions so you can have a fridge. again, our fault.

10- Water line for the ice maker? There wasn't one so we don't install one!

11- Pop corn ceiling? Well, we tested it for asbestos, it came back negative so we didn't take it down.

12- Enclosed baths or showers show lack of professionalism when caulking the joints. 1/4 inch gap is covered by a minuscule bid of caulking. You can see the gap from a mile away. By the way, they sent some incompetent painters hired from Home Cheapo to do the caulking. I could see and I still see the almost 4 inches wide caulking residue left by somebody using the famous rag when applying it. It reminded me of the old time painters who don't know how to use "the finger".

13- Water pressure is bad in the second floor. Not much of a pressure but again, expectations!

14- When installing the brand new pair of dryer and washer, the technician noticed the remodeling guys had swapped the cold water line for the hot one. It could have damaged the dryer right there!

15- Shower downstairs has a toilet with a pocket door, above the door a 1 1/2 feet wall. When you slide the pocket door you enter the shower. Right there, where I think the lack of a window or a fan caused the shower to get gutted. Well, they didn't install the fan there but in the toilet area. So, in order for you to take a shower and take care of the water condensation you need to go to the toilet and turn on the fan that they installed right above your head when you're sitting on the throne. Either laziness, lack of vision or cheap motives move them to not install another fan by the shower. Again, "up to code".

16- We don't need to install alarms in our home. You start climbing the stairs and you can hear the squeaking sound. Squeak, squeak here and squeak there. At midnight, you can hear a sound like when you release a spring. Clang here, clang there.

17- Exterior lights. Brand new energy efficient cheap lights. I have to wiggle once in a while the front one and the one by the master room downstairs. The one by the kitchen sliding door is dead.

18- Oven: A little scratch, the ones that many people use as an excuse to return items to the store. Again, I hate it, the electric ones with the glass top. You need to use special cleaner, God! My fault again!

19- Conventional microwave. It seems whoever opened the box use knife all the way in, cutting the window where you punch the numbers. Again, visible but not during the tour. When you use the fan to extract the fumes when you're boiling a pair of eggs, not only it makes such a noise, but barely sucking 80%. I showed the problem to the city guy and he told me "that's normal, those fans are not made to extract the whole thing"? Jesus! I said, you haven't seen me cooking, I use a big pan and make10 times this much of steam. His advise: Buy and install a commercial hood/fan!

20- My 76 year old mother came to visit me and "help me" during the moving. Even for her age, she is pretty active. After one month here we asked her if she felt some cold in her room. After being sick, coughing and so for 2 weeks, she confesses she doesn't feel any heat coming out of the register on the wall. I grabbed a ladder and yes, barely you can feel anything coming out. The one in the shower, kind of 8 feet away is blowing big time. I am already tired of dealing with this lack of craftsmanship!!!!

Re: How we ended up buying a very ugly flipper!

buyinghouse — Tue, 28 Feb 2012 19:30:05 GMT

THINGS INSTALLED/REMODELED IN THIS PROPERTY BY THE NSP PROGRAM WITH A COST OF MORE THAN $100,000:

Brand new roof. When I stepped on it I felt it a little bit shaky. Cheap quality I think.

Copper tubing in kitchen and baths.

New water heating.

New furnace.

New paint, in and out. $5,000 for the inside and I don't know how much for the exterior with a less than acceptable quality.

New oven and microwave.

New vinyl floors on kitchen and baths. Again, scratched!

New dishwasher.

New carpets in staircase and 4 rooms.

New bath enclosures in 2 rooms.

New cheap and stinky metal sink (underneath the granite slab)

New counter tops with a poor quality.

New sinks and cabinets in baths (3).

I know, I should have done my own "due diligence". So far, we haven't seen a decrease on the prices around, so we are $10K above the price we paid "per the field review".

When do you sacrifice quality for money or for the right/chance to own a home? Perhaps it is the fact that I am one of those painters that see quality as the main point in delivering a service and not a humble buyer who doesn't know anything about quality that makes me cry like a baby. But, disregarding anything, let's say the price or the equity already earned on this property, my main point is to see that this kind of remodeling deals are some kind of predatory attitude when you don't see the hand that feeds these construction companies slapping them on their wrists because they are not doing anything to put any beauty, cosmetic finish or craftsmanship in these homes, instead they are cutting corners with the approval of such supervisors. $120K for this type of craftsmanship blows my mind. Believe me, my last landlord delivered a 100% better paint job than these so called "remodel/rehab" jobs. Worse, when the people in charge of supervising these jobs are just playing dummy to the fact that one thing is "as is" and one thing is stating brand new, fresh paint job when the reality shows that it's not fair to call it "new" when is not because of the "take it or leave it" message that comes embedded in buying these properties. Am I supposed to repair, clean and replace what they say are "brand new" things ? You may say it's OK to receive one or two things damaged or scratched. But when you see 9 out of 10 like that, you question the integrity of a program that is spending big bucks to renovate properties in bad shape. This is where I believe in the famous saying "Applying a coat of lipstick on a piggy" as a mean to deceive home buyers. Yes, I am lucky (my wife I should say) to have bought this property but I think, we thought we were buying a beautiful body but the body is dead and it's turning into a Frankenstein by the minute!

I will post some videos later.

Re: How we ended up buying a very ugly flipper!

HomeHo — Tue, 28 Feb 2012 20:39:41 GMT

The only way you will ever have things exactly the way you would like is if you just do it yourself...

On my last sale, the buyers kept complaing about a paint chip in front of the house, it took me 20 minutes to find it since it was only about the size of a pencil head..

Re: How we ended up buying a very ugly flipper!

returningson — Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:44:08 GMT

HomeHo wrote:

The only way you will ever have things exactly the way you would like is if you just do it yourself...

On my last sale, the buyers kept complaing about a paint chip in front of the house, it took me 20 minutes to find it since it was only about the size of a pencil head..

That's true but the issues involved in this house go far beyond "exactly the way you like...." I would hire an attorney and start filing law suits - against the seller, the real estate agent and the home inspection company. I can't believe that the buyer cannot recoup some of his costs.

Re: How we ended up buying a very ugly flipper!

returningson — Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:47:20 GMT

buyinghouse wrote:
THINGS INSTALLED/REMODELED IN THIS PROPERTY BY THE NSP PROGRAM WITH A COST OF MORE THAN $100,000:

Brand new roof. When I stepped on it I felt it a little bit shaky. Cheap quality I think.

Copper tubing in kitchen and baths.

New water heating.

New furnace.

New paint, in and out. $5,000 for the inside and I don't know how much for the exterior with a less than acceptable quality.

New oven and microwave.

New vinyl floors on kitchen and baths. Again, scratched!

New dishwasher.

New carpets in staircase and 4 rooms.

New bath enclosures in 2 rooms.

New cheap and stinky metal sink (underneath the granite slab)

New counter tops with a poor quality.

New sinks and cabinets in baths (3).

BuyingHouse, have you contacted an attorney? I suspect you can get restitution from the seller, home inspectors and maybe the real estate agent.

Re: How we ended up buying a very ugly flipper!

El_Katz — Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:55:38 GMT

Maybe I can shed a little light on what you're looking at:

The cheap metal sink under the counter: It's called an undermount sink. They are designed to go underneath the countertop to eliminate the ridge around the countertop and the sink. That's a breeding ground for bacteria, mold and mildew. Very often, the source of leaks into the cabinet below. Make sure that there's a bead of silicone between the sink and the countertop. That is the seal.

Water spots: You countertop needs to be sealed. Go to Home Depot and get a granite cleaner (I assume it's granite by your description) and then put a sealer on it. The sealer has to dry and you should reapply it about every 6 months or so. The fissures (rough spots) on the countertop are normal. It's a natural product and probably contains some fillers to smooth the pores of the stone.

Metallic smell of the sink: I assume it's stainless steel. Use Barkeepers Friend to clean it. It doesn't scratch it and removes the oxidation from the surface.

There is no gutter "code". There is a way they should be installed and that has to do with sloping towards the downspouts. If there's water sitting in the middle, the slope is wrong.

If you have a window in your shower area there is no requirement for an exhaust fan. Open the window a bit and turn on the fan. Or leave the door to the bathroom slightly ajar - tough to do with little kids, but it does solve the moisture problem. If moisture is a big problem in the bathroom, I'd recommend mixing a mildecide in the paint. Use a paint suitable for damp areas - probably an oil base (if you can even find them any longer).

Exhaust fans in microwaves - unless vented to the outside - are useless. Sounds like yours is just a fan.

The bouncy roof doesn't necessarily mean cheap. It could mean that the sheathing is minimum code for the rafter spacing. Some bounce is normal.

The flooring you're describing is linoleum... made with linseed oil and other natural byproducts (wood flour, cork dust, etc.). It's a green product and is quite durable - and not necessarily cheap. It's much better than vinyl, but does require some maintenance. http://www.armstrong.com/flooring/floor-care/linoleum-care-instructions.html

Popcorn ceilings. If they've been painted, they're nearly impossible to remove. The method to remove them is to wet them with a light water spray and then scrape the popcorn (or cottage cheese) off by hand. I never liked those. They always seem to look dirty.

I've bought several homes over the years. None of them - even brand new ones - were perfect. I've had custom built and tract homes. They were all pretty much the same. One obviously nicer than another, but still imperfect just the same.

Re: How we ended up buying a very ugly flipper!

buyinghouse — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 00:51:54 GMT

HomeHo wrote:

The only way you will ever have things exactly the way you would like is if you just do it yourself...

On my last sale, the buyers kept complaing about a paint chip in front of the house, it took me 20 minutes to find it since it was only about the size of a pencil head..

I am glad a landlord is talking some sense. But, let me ask you a question:

Let's say your tenant Peter left you with a messed up unit. You come, asses the damages and contract a company to do the remodeled/rehabilitation. You're busy, you swing by once or twice and see the progress. The day comes that they give you the job completed. You see the "craftsmanship" they deliver and sign the check and on their way they go. Then, you go to Craiglist or via word of mouth you find a tenant. In your description you say "brand new this, brand new that". The tenant signs the contract and start moving but during the moving, they let you know they start to find out that the walls have paint drips everywhere, pebbles and dirt embedded on the walls, the brand new or refinished floors have scratches everywhere, the cabinet doors are not leveled, the countertops are not polished 100%, not even sealed properly, caulking on the joints of the enclosed bathroom/s is poorly applied where you can see voids allowing the water to percolate, the exterior lights that have a sensor don't turn on in night time when they should and you have to wiggle them to make them work, one of the rooms doesn't receive 100% of the heating from the furnace, kitchen cabinet drawers hit one to each other with this clank sound, etc, etc. Let's say the tenant makes you sign this big check list of defects found during the move in. What would you do? Are you liable for the damages done to your own property or the company who did the remodel and damages?

One of the things I told to one of the guys from the remodeling company is that "please, don't call a paint job a paint job if you don't follow the mechanics like preping, sanding, priming and backrolling when necessary". In our house I see the things why everybody is cautios when it comes to flippers. I never expected to find such an amount of defects on a job that required more than $100,000. That's my point, I feel cheated, I feel these companies are making big bucks instead of delivering what they call a remodeling job.

To tell you the truth, being a painter, more than once I walked away at the first hint that my boss was doing that kind of painting. Jesus! Not even grabbing a broom to get rid of the dirt on the walls? Can't grab a pair of pliers to pull some nails? Can't grab a caulking gun, shoot some caulking and with your bare fingers rub it in the nail holes? Man!

Thanks for your participation!

Re: How we ended up buying a very ugly flipper!

buyinghouse — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 00:54:09 GMT

returningson wrote:
buyinghouse wrote:
THINGS INSTALLED/REMODELED IN THIS PROPERTY BY THE NSP PROGRAM WITH A COST OF MORE THAN $100,000:

Brand new roof. When I stepped on it I felt it a little bit shaky. Cheap quality I think.

Copper tubing in kitchen and baths.

New water heating.

New furnace.

New paint, in and out. $5,000 for the inside and I don't know how much for the exterior with a less than acceptable quality.

New oven and microwave.

New vinyl floors on kitchen and baths. Again, scratched!

New dishwasher.

New carpets in staircase and 4 rooms.

New bath enclosures in 2 rooms.

New cheap and stinky metal sink (underneath the granite slab)

New counter tops with a poor quality.

New sinks and cabinets in baths (3).

BuyingHouse, have you contacted an attorney? I suspect you can get restitution from the seller, home inspectors and maybe the real estate agent.

Thanks but can't do! This house we bought is via NSP, a government program handled by the cities. They buy messed up properties and convert them into habitable houses. Of course, they don't tell you the quality and craftsmanship they deliver. Once you see it's a deal, you loose concentration and there you go, ending with a piggy.

Thanks for participating!

Re: How we ended up buying a very ugly flipper!

buyinghouse — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 01:19:12 GMT

El_Katz wrote:
Maybe I can shed a little light on what you're looking at:

The cheap metal sink under the counter: It's called an undermount sink. They are designed to go underneath the countertop to eliminate the ridge around the countertop and the sink. That's a breeding ground for bacteria, mold and mildew. Very often, the source of leaks into the cabinet below. Make sure that there's a bead of silicone between the sink and the countertop. That is the seal. Thanks! Yes, you're right, there's a barely visible amount of silicon in there. I don't trust it at all. What upsets me and I know it's my fault, it's that if we decide to replace that sink we are in big trouble. What worries me is that I started to see some small, very small spots of redish on it. Because of the smell and the reputation of this remodel, I start to suspect rust starts to develop.

Water spots: You countertop needs to be sealed. Go to Home Depot and get a granite cleaner (I assume it's granite by your description) and then put a sealer on it. The sealer has to dry and you should reapply it about every 6 months or so. The fissures (rough spots) on the countertop are normal. It's a natural product and probably contains some fillers to smooth the pores of the stone. Again, right! The city guy told me "all the countertops change colors when wet", something I didn't believe. The countertops I see around are so smooth and don't have those fissures. What's laughable is that the guy told me to go to Home Depot and buy the cleaner and a sealer when I should not be doing it but the remodeling company. He contracted them, why isn't he calling them to finish the job and call it "brand new countertops"?
     I think that they had in the plan to put the sink on top of the granite. No communication and they put it underneath, that's why the ridge you mention shows signs of somebody starting to sand it but he was told to stop.

Metallic smell of the sink: I assume it's stainless steel. Use Barkeepers Friend to clean it. It doesn't scratch it and removes the oxidation from the surface. Thanks! I will look into it.

There is no gutter "code". There is a way they should be installed and that has to do with sloping towards the downspouts. If there's water sitting in the middle, the slope is wrong. Thanks, that's what the lady from the construction company told me, they are "up to code".

If you have a window in your shower area there is no requirement for an exhaust fan. Open the window a bit and turn on the fan. Or leave the door to the bathroom slightly ajar - tough to do with little kids, but it does solve the moisture problem. If moisture is a big problem in the bathroom, I'd recommend mixing a mildecide in the paint. Use a paint suitable for damp areas - probably an oil base (if you can even find them any longer).  The bathroom lacks of a window, that's why the fan but in the wrong location. What worries me is that there's a closet in the shower (?) and if the moisture is not taken away it will create a mess. Yes, they told me to open the pocket door so the fan in there sucks the moisture its way. Problem is that if somebody is sitting on the throne you won't be able to do it 'cause the switch to turn on the fan is next to the door going to the livingroom. I think I will be installing another fan in the shower area. No, I won't pay permits! Ha ha ha

Exhaust fans in microwaves - unless vented to the outside - are useless. Sounds like yours is just a fan. It's vented, Ihad to call the guy who installed it during inspection and he found out the exit to the tube was overpainted. We scratched it and we could feel the air coming out. The guy made a little experiment of letting a small piece of paper be sucked in and he took off. To my horror, when I tried to cook, I found out it was a mere ilusion. To me it's ridiculous that not even a small amount of vapor can be sucked in. Live to learn!

The bouncy roof doesn't necessarily mean cheap.   It could mean that the sheathing is minimum code for the rafter spacing. Some bounce is normal. Yes, cheap, that's what it is, cheap!

The flooring you're describing is linoleum... made with linseed oil and other natural byproducts (wood flour, cork dust, etc.). It's a green product and is quite durable - and not necessarily cheap. It's much better than vinyl, but does require some maintenance. http://www.armstrong.com/flooring/floor-care/linoleum-care-instructions.html Oh boy, it really requires a lot of maintenance. But again, when I am standing by the fridge and look to the patio, I can see this bunch of scratches and I start to cry because I can't believe how neglecting they acted. Funny thing? The city guy said it can cure itself? Really?

Popcorn ceilings. If they've been painted, they're nearly impossible to remove. The method to remove them is to wet them with a light water spray and then scrape the popcorn (or cottage cheese) off by hand. I never liked those. They always seem to look dirty. I have done it but when they have flat paint. I will do it when I am 80 years old, not now!

I've bought several homes over the years. None of them - even brand new ones - were perfect. I've had custom built and tract homes. They were all pretty much the same.   One obviously nicer than another, but still imperfect just the same. I wasn't expecting perfection. What I was expecting is the truth not scratched floor, fixtures, and unfinished countertops.

Thanks for your participation El_Katz!

Re: How we ended up buying a very ugly flipper!

sakidd12 — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 03:53:13 GMT

You sound very picky like someone said the only way to get things done to your satisfaction is stand over their shoulder while they do the work or do it yourself. To be honest most of the thing you listed dont sound too expensive to fix except maybe the furnace being undersized. This is why i prefer to buy homes that have been lived in.

Re: How we ended up buying a very ugly flipper!

buyinghouse — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 06:49:28 GMT

sakidd12 wrote:
You sound very picky like someone said the only way to get things done to your satisfaction is stand over their shoulder while they do the work or do it yourself. To be honest most of the thing you listed dont sound too expensive to fix except maybe the furnace being undersized. This is why i prefer to buy homes that have been lived in.

Picky would be somebody who looking at a paint job won't like the way the painter makes his lines. But, if you are not like me, next time you buy a brand new car, don't complain if they give you one all scratched up. It's brand new they say, isn't it? It's going to get scratched anyways, isn't it? But of course, not by you!

Same situation if Sears go to deliver a new oven to your house. They unload it, put it in front of the space where it goes, push it in scratching your brand new hardwood floor. What the heck, it's going to cure itself.

I hope you get the idea, why do I have to replace or repair when that house was supposed to be "looking like brand new". Unless your expectations for "new floors" means they are all scratched and already looking like if people were walking on it for years.

The explanation I got from the city guy was that disregarding the "as is", the contractors are bound to some liability. If something doesn't work properly or brakes because it was installed incorrectly they are supposed to come and fix it or replace it. Reading my story, do you think they will be begging me to come to fix whatever?

One thing I agree with you, brand new doesn't mean crap nowadays. It seems that craftsmanship and integrity were thrown out of the window when it comes to deliver a good construction job. Cutting corners is the way to go nowadays.

Thanks for participating and good luck if you're looking for a home.

Re: How we ended up buying a very ugly flipper!

AprilMay — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 07:38:38 GMT

I am so sorry you had such a bad experience, and I completely sympathize with your complaints about the quality of the work that was done. I had similar thoughts about the work that was done on my house. It should have been done right the first time, instead of wasting taxpayer money on what seems to be a corrupt and wasteful government program.

Re: How we ended up buying a very ugly flipper!

returningson — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 15:29:39 GMT

buyinghouse wrote:
sakidd12 wrote:
You sound very picky like someone said the only way to get things done to your satisfaction is stand over their shoulder while they do the work or do it yourself. To be honest most of the thing you listed dont sound too expensive to fix except maybe the furnace being undersized. This is why i prefer to buy homes that have been lived in.

   Picky would be somebody who looking at a paint job won't like the way the painter makes his lines. But, if you are not like me, next time you buy a brand new car, don't complain if they give you one all scratched up. It's brand new they say, isn't it? It's going to get scratched anyways, isn't it? But of course, not by you!

    Same situation if Sears go to deliver a new oven to your house. They unload it, put it in front of the space where it goes, push it in scratching your brand new hardwood floor. What the heck, it's going to cure itself.

I hope you get the idea, why do I have to replace or repair when that house was supposed to be "looking like brand new". Unless your expectations for "new floors" means they are all scratched and already looking like if people were walking on it for years.

   The explanation I got from the city guy was that disregarding the "as is", the contractors are bound to some liability. If something doesn't work properly or brakes because it was installed incorrectly they are supposed to come and fix it or replace it. Reading my story, do you think they will be begging me to come to fix whatever?

   One thing I agree with you, brand new doesn't mean crap nowadays. It seems that craftsmanship and integrity were thrown out of the window when it comes to deliver a good construction job. Cutting corners is the way to go nowadays.

   Thanks for participating and good luck if you're looking for a home.
buyinghouse wrote:
sakidd12 wrote:
You sound very picky like someone said the only way to get things done to your satisfaction is stand over their shoulder while they do the work or do it yourself. To be honest most of the thing you listed dont sound too expensive to fix except maybe the furnace being undersized. This is why i prefer to buy homes that have been lived in.

   Picky would be somebody who looking at a paint job won't like the way the painter makes his lines. But, if you are not like me, next time you buy a brand new car, don't complain if they give you one all scratched up. It's brand new they say, isn't it? It's going to get scratched anyways, isn't it? But of course, not by you!

    Same situation if Sears go to deliver a new oven to your house. They unload it, put it in front of the space where it goes, push it in scratching your brand new hardwood floor. What the heck, it's going to cure itself.

I hope you get the idea, why do I have to replace or repair when that house was supposed to be "looking like brand new". Unless your expectations for "new floors" means they are all scratched and already looking like if people were walking on it for years.

   The explanation I got from the city guy was that disregarding the "as is", the contractors are bound to some liability. If something doesn't work properly or brakes because it was installed incorrectly they are supposed to come and fix it or replace it. Reading my story, do you think they will be begging me to come to fix whatever?

   One thing I agree with you, brand new doesn't mean crap nowadays. It seems that craftsmanship and integrity were thrown out of the window when it comes to deliver a good construction job. Cutting corners is the way to go nowadays.

   Thanks for participating and good luck if you're looking for a home.
Buyinghouse:

I fully agree with you but, I hate to say it, you have to take some responsibility for the situation you are in. You should have carefully inspected everything before signing the purchase contract and should have done a pre-settlement walkthrough and noted all defects. If the seller didn't agree in writing to repair all defects you could have refused to close on the property. I know, it's messy but it's the only leverage you would have had.

For what it's worth, I made the same mistake when I bought my current townhouse. I was pressed for time, the townhouse looked good and was in a highly desirable location. Since it was a condo I didn't bother with a home inspection as I assumed the HOA was responsible for all the big stuff. Well it turned out that the seller didn't disclose a lot of defects within the unit that were not the HOA's responsibility, e.g., a plumbing leak under the sink, wiring that he had done which did not conform with the code, shoddy drywall work, settling cracks patched over, etc. It took me over a year to discover and fix all of those things. A good home inspector would have found much of this stuff. That was 24 years ago and the house has more than doubled in value (which only amounts to about a 4 percent per year appreciation rate - pretty stinky but at least it's a positive return).

We can't trust anyone these days. Maybe it's because of the highly competitive environment we live in. Our corporations outsource production to China to same money and we end up getting crappy quality products with a high failure rate - but they are cheap.

Developers and "flippers" are under pressure to hold down costs. The TV show "Flip this House" (or some title like that) depicts the problems the typical flipper faces. Most of them make an unconscionable profit for the time and effort they put in, but not always. What gets me is that most have limited educations (one was a hair cutter). Makes me wonder if I should go into the flipping business instead of doing part-time management consulting.

Re: How we ended up buying a very ugly flipper!

mediaguru — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 15:45:47 GMT

returningson wrote:
Developers and "flippers" are under pressure to hold down costs. The TV show "Flip this House" (or some title like that) depicts the problems the typical flipper faces. Most of them make an unconscionable profit for the time and effort they put in, but not always. What gets me is that most have limited educations (one was a hair cutter). Makes me wonder if I should go into the flipping business instead of doing part-time management consulting.

If you do, you could probably come out pretty nicely these days... but not in overpriced California. You'd have to pick the right markets. I imagine that, with how far Florida fell and the allure it holds for many foreigners looking to move the US, that might be a prime market. Illinois also is a hotspot for foreigners, and they may have more money, coming from European and Asian countries that are doing well right now.

Or outside of NYC... I'm seeing several houses in the Hamptons down 40%-50% from peak, back to prices from the 90's...

But there's no way I would be one in CA, unless you have some way to get on the good deals through probate sales and such (I would also say auctions, but even most auctions are overpriced these days; people owe more on the mortgage than the house is even worth, hence the reason they are walking. Most auctions I am seeing just get ignored because after it goes REO, it will have to be sold for less than the minimum price you pay sight-unseen at the courthouse steps.)

I'm seeing a few flippers pull off the coup if they pick the right properties -- but those are ones that would appeal to special subset of wealthy retirees and foreign vacation buyers. Not typical suburbia-dwelling families and workers. I see other flips that must be barely breaking even...

Re: How we ended up buying a very ugly flipper!

AstroWallaby — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 18:03:37 GMT

Sort of a pointless thing to toss in here, but with regard to the comment about a "bouncy" roof: I didn't see anywhere in the opening of this post what the vintage of the house in question is, but I can comment about my typical 1959-vintage Bay Area tract house: yes, the roofs bounce and they did from the start.

I don't know to what degree later building codes might of lead to beefing up the roofs but every "orginal" house in my neighborhood has the same thing: 2x6-ish rafters spaced at roughly two foot intervals with the roofing material nailed onto boards about eight inches wide and about a half-inch thick. (In one section my house has had the original boards replaced with exterior-grade plywood.) It's apparently fully up to whatever code applied at the time, it doesn't leak, and it's covered with the second-best compsite roofing stuff on the market but I wouldn't recommend doing much dancing on it. It definitely has some give when you walk around on it, particularly if you don't fall into the bantamweight classes.

To someone who grew up in part of the country where roofs are actually expected to hold up snow part of the year I'm sure your average coastal California house must seem astonishingly flimsy. :^b

Re: How we ended up buying a very ugly flipper!

sakidd12 — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 18:32:22 GMT

Also the disclosure form where they tell you what's been replace isnt' meant to be a list of things that are in perfect condition. It's more like a list of what to check to see that it's been done properly.

Also as far as materials quality there's a Chinese version of just about everything these days so if you dont specifically ask for it you are more than likely getting the cheapest thing possible. Check your new water heater for example more than likely it doesn't have any brand name on it.