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Twenty day notice??
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seattlegal
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Registered: 08-16-2009


seattlegal

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My escrow is due to close on November 11. On October 31, I gave 20 day notice to my current landlord along with a check for 20 days of rent for the month of November. He returned the check to me on November 1st and demanded a check for thirty days of rent. He told me that the NOTICE requirement is only twenty days but the PAYMENT requirement is 30 days. He considerately agreed to return ten days worth or rent to me in the event that he rents the unit out by the 20th. WTF??? Why am I responsible for ten days of rent when I will not be there, and I have given proper notice of termination. I have been here for three years, the last two on a month to month.

 

Upon researching this, all I can find is 20 day notice is required over and over again, but I cannot find anywhere in the landlord tenant laws about whether or not 20 days of rent is owed or thirty days of rent is owed. If it is 30 days, then how is this a realistic  that only a 20 day notice is required if you are still responsible for rent for ten additional days of rent?

 

On the other end, the sellers are demanding to stay in the home for "up to seven days without payment" to me.

 

So I guess  I get to pay for them to have a free place to live, and I get to pay piti, and rent  for ten extra days to my landlord.

 

 

 

 

 

Kudos!
11-01-2009 07:46 PM
 

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Re: Twenty day notice??   [ Edited ]
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Muppet
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Registered: 09-15-2009


Muppet

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I wouldn't worry too much about the lost ten days rent from your landlord.  I had a landlord do the same thing to me, but they also nickel and dimed my deposit of $1800 away.  I should have taken her to court, but it wasn't worth me flying across the country to do it. 

 

I would be more worried about the sellers staying there.  I wouldn't tolerate it.  Any good agent wouldn't let his clients assume this risk.  If they hurt themselves or if they damage the home, or if there is a fire, you are liable.  Ever heard the nice guy finishes last, well it is true in this case.  It is true that it has become almost an industry norm to allow this.  The reason is the industry is dominated by incompetent agents who aren't fighting for the best interest of their clients.  If they were, they would accept this as practice. 

 

I would say, they are welcome to stay there, but they have to pay you rent.  I would charge $100 per hundred thousand dollars of the closing price, so if the house was worth $500k, I would charge $500/night.  They won't stay long with that kind of rent.  If you are going to assume risk, you should be compensated.

 

If your agent is pushing you to do this (and many do), I would talk to the broker immediately to get this resolved.  This is a HUGE deal, and if the broker is willing to assume the risk (in writing) and cover the mortgage payments for the days the sellers are in there, fine.  However, I doubt they will.  

 

And that will show you exactly how big of a deal it is.  If it was small, they would take care of it to keep the transaction moving along smoothly.

Message Edited by Muppet on 11-01-2009 10:10 PM
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Kudos!
11-01-2009 10:04 PM
 

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Re: Twenty day notice??
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MattVW
Redfin Partner Agent
Posts: 169
Registered: 10-28-2008


MattVW

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Twenty days notice is required to terminate the lease at the end of the term. In the case of a month-to-month lease, the term ends at the end of a month, so you are required to give 20 days notice before the end of the month to terminate the lease.
 

Matt van Winkle
Attorney | Redfin Partner Agent
Sound Counsel Realty
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Kudos!
11-02-2009 07:00 AM
 

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Re: Twenty day notice??
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Venturion
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Venturion

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Sorry to be OT, but congrats Matt!  I just noticed the shiny new tagline in your signature.
Kudos!
11-02-2009 07:37 AM
 

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Re: Twenty day notice??
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seattlegal
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seattlegal

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So everywhere I look, I find this number twenty days notice. But nowhere does it specify that only twenty days of rent is due. I understand that If I pay 30 days of rent on the 1st that I can dither around and wait to give notice on the 9th day of the month, having already paid the entire months rent. What I cannot find anywhere is any mention that If I KNOW I will be out by the 20th, I only owe 20 days of rent. My escrow is closing on the 11th, a date chosen by the sellers for reasons unknown to me. If I had my druthers, I would close during the third week of the month and not owe so much at closing. This closing date increases my closing costs by about $1500. Then they want to stay until the 18th--free of charge.

 

Since I already had an earlier deal fall apart due partly to the sellers getting their knickers all in a bunch because I refused to sign off on them staying in the property past closing (I was worried that they would destroy the house, because they didn't  really want to sell for the price they finally agreed on, and I was worried about liability issues)

 

Since apparently every seller demands this, I don't think I can get around it. I have had three different agents tell me that this is the standard "courtesy" applied to every transaction in this area, and "Nobody has ever heard of any legal problems with it"  They are all making me feel like I am really a selfish person not to give this courtesy. I am extremely worried about this because the selling couple are in their late eighties and are selling due to the fact that they keep falling down in this tri level house. My agent says he will draw up a "hold harmless" agreement whereby they agree not to sue me if they fall down while moving out. I guess I will just have to cross my fingers that the place won't burn down. I imagine that would be on me if that were to happen. This whole process has sucked big time from the moment I put in the offer, so why should now be any different...

 

I partly agreed to this based on information also given to me by the agent that I would also not be liable for thrity days of rent at my current place, so long as I gave notice by the 31st. Now the landlord is telling me that the twenty days is for notice purposes, and not rent monies due, and that my tenancy agreement clearly states that X number of dollars is due on the first on each month. It does say that, and he has given me back my check for twenty days of rent and demanded thirty days of rent by close of business today, or pay his $50 late fee per day.

 

I have read the RCW, and it does not address at all the monies due with the notice if it is given on the last day of the previous rental period. Since the RCW is silent on this, I think that the landlord may be correct that these are two different issues. the rental agreement deals with rents due and the notice only gives leeway to wait until the ninth day to give notice but it may not lower the monies due at the beginning of rental period if notice is given prior to day one of the rental period. I still don't understand why thirty days rent is required when only twenty days notice is required, but I will just add it to the list of things that make no sense to me, and yet are still true.

 

I imagine that when I get ready to sell, that I will be told that it is no longer "common courtesy" to allow me to tarry around for a a week without paying rent to the new owners...

Kudos!
11-02-2009 10:57 AM
 

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Venturion
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Posts: 1282
Registered: 12-28-2007


Venturion

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Seattlegal, you're a smart and patient person: go with your instincts.  Real estate isn't like golf where you are swinging correctly when it feels wrong.  So if you think you're getting a raw deal on your rent, ask for arbitration.  On the lease-back after you purchase, at a minimum, get the lawyer to draw up the hold harmless agreement.  And have the agent eat both the costs out of her commission.

 

Good luck and thanks for keeping us aware of these crazy issues!

Kudos!
11-02-2009 11:04 AM
 

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Muppet
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Posts: 118
Registered: 09-15-2009


Muppet

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I agree with Venturion...you seem pretty sharp.  You definitely should fight for your rights as a tenant.  I would recommend focusing your energy first on your closing process, then work the landlord issue.  

 

But who am I to say that.  That is how I would do it because I can't handle too many moving plates at one time.   Love the posts. Insightful, clear, and thought provoking. 

 

Best of luck although you won't need it!

Kudos!
11-02-2009 03:44 PM
 

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Re: Twenty day notice??
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Capri
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Capri

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1. Regarding the 20-days notice, you are right. The lease covers how much is due on the first, and the RCW covers how much notice to give. If you are on a month-to-month lease, you rent each month in full under the terms of the lease. The RCW then mandates that you give 20-days notice to not rent for the next month. The full month's rent is due on the first. (IIAL FYI. IINYL though.)

 

2. Regarding letting the sellers stay in the house after closing, DO NOT DO THIS. Especially do not do this if your gut tells you not to. This is a BAD idea, for the reasons you've already listed, and also because if they don't leave on time, evicting them is **bleep**-near impossible. DO NOT give any ground on this. Walk away from the sale if this is a deal killer -- really. The liability you'll take on is horrendous, and you could find yourself with deadbeat tenants with no lease and paying no rent. And the press you'd get kicking out a couple in their 80s? Forget about it.

 

Best of luck. - Capri 

Kudos!
11-02-2009 05:19 PM
 

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Re: Twenty day notice??   [ Edited ]
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encorehere
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Registered: 07-16-2008


encorehere

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Strongly agree that you should not let the seller stay in the house after closing.  I do not think it's professional that the agent told you this is common courtesy, this is a business and legal transaction, it can be a big mess later for all the reaons everyone mentioned here and more.  And if there is a problem you will be the one suffering, not the seller, not the agents. The landlord thing would be like nothing compare to this. 

 

Your agent is not doing a good job defend your right,if they want to stay in the house after closing, then delay the closing to later date and both parties should sign the addedum, walk away from this deal if they do not agree to, the sellers and agents have more to loose then you if the deal does not go through, not you. 

 

Best of luck!

 

 

 

Message Edited by encorehere on 11-02-2009 07:37 PM
Kudos!
11-02-2009 07:35 PM
 

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Re: Twenty day notice??
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duplex
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Registered: 10-05-2007


duplex

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Your rental agreement with a landlord is based on a rental period, usually the month.  It wouldn't be fair if the landlord came to you and said on the first "I want you out by the 20th" because your rental agreement is on a monthly basis and you pay on a monthly basis.  The landlord is in no way required to pro-rate the rent.  Think of it this way, if you rent a hotel room for the night but only stay for 6 hours, the hotel isn't going to prorate your stay because the rental period is what it is.  Nice landlords will generally prorate you if you give them sufficient notice.  The minimum is just that - the minimum.
Kudos!
11-03-2009 07:47 AM
 

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